3000 K STREET, N.W. )
SUITE 300 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20007 )
Plaintiff, )
vs. ) Civil Action
) Number
Defendants. )


Taken on behalf of the Defendant Holder, pursuant to
agreement of the parties under the Federal Rules of
Civil Procedure, at 8:30 a.m., on the 19th day of
March, 1998, at the U.S. Courthouse, 101 North 5th
Street, Muskogee, Oklahoma, before Linda Fisher,
Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and

Page 2

For the Plaintiff: MR.ANDREW L. LIPPS
Swidler & Berlin, Chartered
Washington, D.C. 20007

For the Defendants: MR. CHARLES W. SHIPLEY
Shipley, Jennings & Champlin
Tulsa, Oklahoma 74119

For the Defendants: MR.CHADWICK SMITH
Tulsa, Oklahoma 74131

Also present: MS. PAULA HOLDER

* * * * * * * * * *

It is stipulated and agreed by and between the
parties hereto that the notice for the taking of this
deposition is waived, and that the same may be taken
at this time and place.

It is stipulated and agreed by and between the
parties hereto that all objections, except as to the
form of the questions, are reserved to the time of
trail with the same force and effect as if made at
the taking of the deposition.

Page 3


Direct Examination by Mr. Shipley……… 4


Deposition Exhibit Number 19……….36,37,42,44
Deposition Exhibit Number 20………56,59,62,63,65
Deposition Exhibit Number 21…………..56,65
Deposition Exhibit Number 22……………162


Deposition Exhibit Number 1………42,56,75,95,155
Deposition Exhibit Number 2……………..57
Deposition Exhibit Number 5……………..19
Deposition Exhibit Number 6………..6,7,10,11,19
Deposition Exhibit Number 8…………….131
Deposition Exhibit Number 14…………..119,124
Deposition Exhibit Number 15……………120
Deposition Exhibit Number 17……………23,35
Deposition Exhibit Number 18…………….7,12

Page 4

after having been first duly sworn to testify the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
testified as follows:
THE WITNESS: For the record I would
like to state that there was a previous time for a
deposition and then it was cancelled.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) Good morning Chief. My name is
Chuck Shipley. And I represent councilperson
Paula Holder in this matter.
I know you’ve given your deposition before,
but I just want you to know that — I want you to
feel free that if you don’t understand a question,
to stop me and have me repeat it. And if you
don’t stop me and ask me to repeat it, and you do
answer a question, I will assume that you have
understood it, is that acceptable?
A Okay.
Q All right, I understand you have a funeral that
you need to go to today.
A Yes, sir.
Q Okay. And so what time will you need to leave?
A Probably around 12:00 if that’s at all possible.

Page 5

Q Okay. Well, it will be possible. We may,
depending on whether we’re through by then, we may
need to reconvene after — what time is the
funeral and where is it, if I may ask?
A It’s two o’clock in Sallisaw.
MR. LIPPS: Do we need to do this on the
record, Counsel?
MR. SHIPLEY: Well, I guess not.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) Okay. First, Chief, you were
elected in 1995, correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q And prior to that you served on the Tribal Council
but I don’t remember exactly how long.
A Eight years, two terms.
Q Eight years. All right. And before your tenure
as a councilman, did you have any job or official
capacity with the Cherokee Nation?
A Not — I was a high school counselor for seven
years, coach, administrator. I did my first
employment with the Cherokee Nation years back.
Q And what — did you go to college?
A Yes, graduated from Northeastern State University.
Q And when and what was your area of expertise or
your degree, please?
A I went to Northeastern 1972, a BS in education.

Page 6

minor was in political science, got my Master’s in
guidance administration.
Q What year did you get your Master’s?
A Seventy-eight.
Q Seventy-eight. And did you say your BS was ’72?
A BS was like in ’76, ’77.
Q Okay. There came a time that the Cherokee Nation
contacted Swidler and Berlin about performing work
for them. When do you recall that that was?
A Not in the beginning. I delegate that authority
to some of the staff members for that purpose at
Q All right. Let me show you, if I may, what’s been
marked as Deposition Exhibit 6 which is a
September 5, 1996 letter to Mr. Gourd from Mr.
Hamilton. Have you ever seen that document
A Yes, sir.
Q And when did you first see it?
A I’m not for sure when I first saw this.

Page 7

Q Would you have seen it within the first month or
so of it having been sent to the Nation?
A Sometimes I would. This one here I really don’t
recall exactly when I saw this.
Q Okay. You’re generally familiar, from your eight
years as a councilperson and your three years or
so as a chief, with the contracting requirements
of the Cherokee Nation, are you not?
A Yes, sir.
Q The document that we just looked at, Deposition
Exhibit 6, does that comply with those
requirements as a contract with an outside vendor?
A With the attorneys sometimes it’s an engagement
letter such as this. To me it’s fairly standard.
Q Is your answer yes, then?
A Yes.
Q All right. Let me show you, sir, what’s been
marked as Deposition Exhibit 18 which is an
affidavit signed by Jennie Battles July 24, 1997,
and ask you if you have seen that before.
MR. LIPPS: This is an affidavit in a
different case than this one, is that correct,
MR. SHIPLEY: I believe that’s the case.
MR. LIPPS: Okay.

Page 8

A I don’t recall this, seeing this, sir.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) All right. You’ve not seen it.
before, you don’t believe you’ve seen this before?
A No, I don’t think so.
Q Well, after having reviewed it, you know who Mrs.
Battles is?
A Yes, sir.
Q And she is, I believe, the secretary-treasurer of
the tribe?
A Yes.
Q And until recently was the chief financial officer
as well?
A Yes.
Q Why is it that she’s no longer chief financial
A We have made some changes there in the accounting
system. I think we were understaffed in many ways
with the new system that we’re trying to implement
such as fundware, the accounting system, and I
just felt like we were undermanned and put Charles
Head, who has much more knowledge of those type of
day-to-day operations, so I put Charles Head in
charge of those operations.
Q So is Charles Head the chief financial officer

Page 9

A Yes.
Q And as of when, if you remember, did that occur?
A Say within the last 30 days.
Q Okay. The affidavit of Ms. Battles in paragraph
3, and I’ll hand this back to you so you can
confirm it, indicates that, “Prior to the payments
of any monies to any individuals or other
organizations, it is a requirement of the Cherokee
Nation and a standard operating procedure to
require a contract to be entered into by and
between the person or organization furnishing such
services and the Cherokee Nation.
“Furthermore, this contract provides for the
services to be rendered, the duties to be
performed, the payments to be made and other items
particular to and unique to the particular
services sought for and obtained by the Cherokee
Nation.” And the bottom of paragraph 6 says, “All
other attorneys’ services are provided for by
contract and contracts have been entered into
prior to the payment of any of the said amounts.”
I’ll ask you to focus on paragraph 3 and the
bottom of paragraph 6.
A Okay.
MR. LIPPS: Is there a question pending?

Page 10

MR. SHIPLEY: I’m waiting for him to
look at it again.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) Now, I’ll ask you again if, after
having reviewed the requirements as described by
Ms. Battles, whether you believe the Deposition
Exhibit 6 meets with the requirements as described
by her.
MR. LIPPS: Counsel, let me object
because I think this question misstates Ms.
Battles’ requirements since she testified fully
about that affidavit and that it was consistent
with the requirements. The reason she gave, and I
will not state on the record here. So to suggest
that that affidavit is a representation of Ms.
Battles’ requirements as it pertains to attorney
contracts is contradictory to her own testimony
and therefore, I think misstates the record.
MR. SHIPLEY: Are you suggesting that
the document that we have here, number 18, does
not address attorney contracts?
MR. LIPPS: You can ask him whatever
question you want, Counsel. My only point was:
If you represent that as Ms. Battles’ statements
of requirements, it is inconsistent with her
testimony yesterday. That’s my objection. You’re

Page 11

free to inquire fully.
MR. SHIPLEY: And I want to tell you if
you keep coaching the witness with telling him,
suggesting answers to him, we’re going to have to
go talk to the judge.
MR LIPPS: I haven’t coached the
witness and I haven’t suggested a single answer.
You represented what Ms. Battles’ requirements
were, Counsel, and I believe you did so
incorrectly. That’s all. You may proceed.
MR. SHIPLEY: My recollection of what I
said, Mr. Lipps, is that this document sets forth
certain requirements. And if I didn’t say that,
that’s what I would like to say.
Q (by Mr. Shipley) Chief, this document, as I
understand it, sets forth certain requirements
with regard to contracts and I’m asking you if the
requirements, as written in the document you have
in you had, are complied with by the document
we’ve previously discussed, Deposition Exhibit 6?
A I would say that this one here would suffice also
as an engagement letter, that that is acceptable.
Q Well, I’m asking you: Does it comply with the
contract requirements as described by the document
18 that you have in your hand?

Page 12

A I would say it does not comply with that.
Q All right. Thank you. “That” being Deposition
Exhibit 18, correct?
MR. LIPPS: Yes, that’s what he was
referring to.
Q (by Mr. Shipley) Okay. Do you recall, Chief, the
criminal complaint filed against you and Ms.
Battles on the 11th of April regarding payment of
Swidler and Berlin legal bills?
A I recall it. I don’t remember the exact date.
Q Do you recall that in threat complaint that the
tribal prosecutor alleged that there was no
contract in existence for Swidler and Berlin at
that time?
MR. LIPPS: Counsel, I’d ask if you
could give him the courtesy of showing him the
MR. SHIPLEY: I’ve handed a copy of the
complaint to the witness.
MR. LIPPS: May I direct him to the line
you’re referring to about the contract?
MR. SHIPLEY: Surely.
MR. LIPPS: Thank you.
A Okay. Yes, I see that.
Q (by Mr. Shipley) You had seen this document

Page 13

before, I presume, the complaint of — the file
stamp of April 11, 1997, on it?
A Have I seen this document?
Q Yes, sir.
A No, sir.
Q Then you were not aware around the 11th of April
that there was an allegation by the tribal
prosecutor that there was not a contract on file
with the firm of Swidler and Berlin?
A I read the title, the topic. That’s about all I
Q Did you ever up and to this date become aware that
certain folks believed there was no contract on
file between the Cherokee Nation and Swidler and
MR. LIPPS: Objection to the form of the
question. You may answer.
A Repeat your question.
MR. SHIPLEY: Surely.
(Whereupon, the preceding question was read by
the reporter.)
A Did I ever believe certain folks believed there
was no contract on file? Maybe, probably.

Page 14

Q (by Mr. Shipley) All right. Well, that wasn’t
very — my question wasn’t very artfully put. Are
you aware that Peat-Marwick, when they performed
their review of the tribal records that was dated
September 30, 1997, indicated that there was no
contract between the Nation and Swidler and
A In their review?
Q Yes.
A Was there a statement that there was not a
contract, is that your question?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q And when did you become aware of that statement?
A We received that information sometime when they
were about to exit, whatever that date might be.
Q Sometime around the what, sir?
A Whenever they were exiting, they were finished
with their review.
Q All right.
A I don’t have the exact date.
Q So some — does it sound roughly right, is your
recollection, that it was perhaps sometime in
August when they completed their review of the

Page 15

MR.LIPPS: Objection to the form of the
A I’m not for sure the exact date, sir, no, when
they finished their review.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) Do you recall one of the auditors
with Pear-Marwick, a fellow named Jim Paris
(phonetic), meeting with you?
A Yes.
Q And was this prior to the time — how many times
did you meet with Mr. Paris?
A Maybe once. The council engaged with Jim Paris.
I think it went through the chairman of the
finance committee, Harold DeMoss, and maybe Bill
Baker was the one that contacted him. They had a
lot of their meetings with them. I think my
meeting was about when they were about to exit and
said they were about through and it may have taken
five minutes.
Q Okay. Do you remember in that meeting with Mr.
Paris on or about the exit date that he pointed
out to you that no contract with Swidler and
Berlin was in the file?
A I don’t recall that. I think what he pointed out
is some of the weaknesses that we might have had
in the — nothing major to get alarmed about but

Page 16

some recommendations that were made. And we took
those to heart and tried to implement those
Q Do you remember what seemed important to you at
that time?
A It seemed like he mentioned the fundware, the
accounting system was a target that we needed to
make sure we implemented something where we could
get financial reports on a timely basis.
Q Do you recall that the annual audit for Deloitte
Touche for fiscal year ’96 made a similar
recommendation about fundware?
MR. LIPPS: Objection as to relevance,
but you may answer.
A They might have. I really haven’t critiqued those
reports yet. I have had staff reviewing those and
trying to make appropriate implementations.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) Are you aware, then, that
Deloitte and Touche, during their annual audit for
fiscal year 1995 made the same comment about
fundware being a problem?
MR. LIPPS: Same objection as to the
relevance to this lawsuit. But to avoid
unnecessary disputes, you may answer.
A I wasn’t aware of that if there were and it

Page 17

probably even goes back to ’94 and ’95. That’s
when we bought the fundware. The fundware was
purchased in ’94 before I took office.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) Okay. If you don’t recall Mr.
Paris pointing out to you in the interview around
the time that the audit firm exited that there was
no contract in the file, when did you first become
aware that there was no contract in the file for
Swidler and Berlin?
A It seemed like one of the staff, it could have
been Charles Head, Jennie, either one, was looking
at the engagement letter and brought it to my
attention and said that we might need to do a
contract. But this engagement letter was
perfectly legit from what I head.
Q Who had the engagement letter that we looked at
here marked as Deposition Exhibit 6?
MR. LIPPS: Who had it meaning physical
Q (By Mr. Shipley) Whose file was it in?
A I would — Charles ordered the initial engagement
so I’m just saying probably him.
MR. LIPPS: Chief, let me — from the
form of your answer, I can’t tell to what extent
it reflects your knowledge. And so let me say

Page 18

here, as in other depositions, to the extent you
have personal knowledge, you should answer. To
the extent you have a reasonable basis for a
belief, you should answer. But in no event should
you guess on matters that you have no knowledge
MR. LIPPS: So I simply give you that as
a guidance which I believe is a proper guidance.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) With the comments by your
counsel, do you want to revise your answer?
A I would say that I would not know precise who had
the engagement letter.
Q You had a — at the time of the review by
Peat-Marwick in August and September of 1997,
there was a contracts section of the Cherokee
Nation, was there not?
A All contracts kept in one particular office?
Q Yes.

Page 19

A I would say so.
Q Yes.
A But that wouldn’t say that there’s probably not
more than one contract in other people’s office,
too, because there’s more than one person I
delegate to engage obviously in these letters or
contracts. There should be one set always at the
secretary’s office.
Q So there should be a copy of all contracts kept in
the secretary-treasurer’s office?
A Or engagement letters.
Q One copy of whatever document that you are relying
on as a contract?
A Yes.
Q And that would be Ms. Battles?
A Yes, sir.
Q I’ll show you what we have marked heretofore as
Deposition Exhibit Number 5 which is entitled
“Attorney Contract”,dated September 15, 1997,
between the Cherokee Nation and Swidler and
Berlin, and ask you to look at that.
A Okay.
Q Have you ever seen that document before?
A Yes.
Q Is that your — a copy of your signature on it?

Page 20

A Yes.
Q And tell us how this document came in to being,
A At the request of council members through Charles
Head brought it to my attention that a contract
might suffice for Peat-Marwick and I think that’s
how that contract came to be.
Q Who drafted this contract, if you know?
A Charles Head brought it to my attention. I would —
he used it to draw most or some of those up.
Q Why was Mr. Gourd not involved in the preparation
of this contract since he had been the one that
obtained the engagement letter for his file?
A I think Charles Gourd probably accepted the
engagement letter. Charles Gourd is not the
Person who usually drafts the engagement letter or
if we have contracts.
Q All right. Do you know if anyone else in the
Cherokee Nation besides yourself and Charles Head
reviewed this contract before you signed it?
A Not that I’m familiar with. I couldn’t say.
Q At the time that you signed — let me ask you —
did you sign this contract on the 15th of
September, 1997?
A I signed that document. If that’s the date on

Page 21

there, that’s the original, and a copy, I’m sure
that’s when I signed it.
Q Were you in Mr. Hamilton’s presence when you
signed it?
A No, sir.
Q Was his signature on the document when it was
presented to you?
A No, sir.
Q You notice that the rate in this document says for
James Hamilton $300 per hour?
A Yes.
Q Is that a correct reflection of your agreement
with Swidler and Berlin for Mr. Hamilton’s time?
A 300 it seems like is what I recall.
Q 300?
A Yes.
Q Thank you. Mr. George Thomas is no longer with
the Cherokee Nation, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And when did Mr. Thomas’s employment end?
A February, from what I recollect, the month of
Q February last month?
A Yes, I don’t know the exact date.
Q Of this year. And under what conditions did Mr.

Page 22

Thomas’s employment end?
A George left on good terms. George was wanting to
leave sometime ago. I encouraged him to stay. He
was a dedicated worker but he had other
aspirations and he felt like this was the time for
him to depart and move on. And I encouraged him,
if he wanted to, and I gave him my blessings when
he left.
Q Then I take it from the tenor of your statement
that you didn’t have any problem with the quality
of his work?
A I could say I don’t have any comments about the
quality of his work.
Q Well, was the quality of his work satisfactory or
MR. LIPPS: Objection. Lack of
Q (By Mr. Shipley) Was the quality of his work
satisfactory to you or not?
MR. LIPPS: Same objection.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) You can answer the question if
you understand it.
A His performance was acceptable.
Q Okay. Is your testimony that Mr. Thomas was not
terminated by the tribe but that he chose to

Page 23

A Yes, sir.
Q Where does Mr. Thomas work now?
A I don’t know that, sir.
Q Do you know where he resides now?
A No, sir, I don’t.
Q The Cherokee Nation personnel office would have
that information, would it not?
A Maybe.
MR. SHIPLEY: We request that
information, Counsel.
A We can find out.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) Okay. I will show you, if I may,
Chief, what we’ve heretofore marked as Deposition
Exhibit 17 which is a letter from you to Secretary
Babbitt, dated April 16.
A What was the date?
Q April 16 on the document.
MR. LIPPS: The date on the top.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) Take a moment to review that
document and the attached council resolution.
A Okay. I’ve read it.
Q All right. Who drafted this letter, sir?
A I did.
Q Did you authorize Swidler and Berlin to make

Page 24

changes to it?
A No. Charles Head and I put this piece together
right — and I don’t recall any assistance from
anybody at that time.
Q If there had been assistance by Swidler and Berlin
to Mr. Head, would you have known about it?
A Not necessarily.
Q This document that you signed, this is your
signature, is it not?
A Yes.
Q Sends to the Secretary of the Interior a copy of
resolution number 17-19. That’s attached to this
document, correct?
A Yes, it is.
Q And that was the document or the resolution passed
the evening of April 15, 1997 and signed by you,
A Yes.
Q In this document, this resolution, twice, first in
the heading the last word in the heading, and
again in the fifth “Whereas” the work “emergency”
appears. And the document says, “This declares and
emergency.” Does that emergency in the document
refer to anything other than the procedural
statement necessary to make that resolution

Page 25

effective immediately?
MR. LIPPS: Objection to the form of the
question on competency of the witness to answer
that question.
MR. SHIPLEY: He’s been a councilor for
eight years and a chief for three; he’s familiar
with their procedures.
MR. LIPPS: You’re welcome to explore
it. We question the subject, and that’s the
objection I’m making.
MR. SHIPLEY: All right.
A Repeat your question.
(Whereupon, the preceding question was read by
the reporter.)
MR. LIPPS: Also objection on the
grounds of vagueness but you can answer it.
A Emergency meaning I have, as a principal Chief of
the Cherokee Nation, to insure I take ever
precaution for safety of the people and that’s why
I declared this an emergency.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) What sort of emergency did you
have in mind on the 15th of April, 1997?
A The safety of the people.
Q From what?
A Any harm, any danger, any violence.

Page 26

Q From what source?
A Council members were — council meetings were
getting very heated, a lot of tension I felt like
at that time. It was my responsibility as the
head of the tribe to take every precaution
possible to see that there was no violence anyway.
We had had armed securities and marshals out there
and I just took it upon myself to do that and I
felt like for the safety of the people it was the
right move.
Q You were present in the Tribal Council meeting the
evening of Tuesday, April 15, 1997, weren’t you?
A April 15, Tuesday.
Q This was a Tuesday night that this document was
debated and signed.
A Yes.
Q And you were present for the entire debate on this
document, were you not?
A Yes.
Q Have you ever reviewed the videotape of that
evening’s debate?
A No, sir.
Q Well, I have, and there is, my recollection, no
reference in the entire hour and 45 minutes to any
threat of violence or any danger or any outbreak

Page 27

of violence. Do you recall any?
A Yes. What led up to that is, being a tribal
member, I’m not sure if you are or not, you have
to understand the Cherokee people and I’m not
going to be asking you questions but the
responsibility falls upon the leader of the tribe
not an outside observer. I would take it upon
myself to make sure there was no violence. And
for the safety of the people I felt like this was
an appropriate action to take.
There was a lot of things that led up to that
again when you have armed security and marshals,
automatic weapons. There were two people that
were — had already been arrested. So I felt like
again as the leader of the tribe, I have a
responsibility to the people. And any precautions
that I might take that would prevent one person
getting injured or hurt is the right decision and
I felt like this was the right decision.
Q Was there anything other than arrests by the
marshals that you were trying to prevent?
A Harm coming to the civilians of the Cherokee
Q I want to ask you again the question that I asked
you before.

Page 28

MR LIPPS: Counsel, if I may, so I
don’t interrupt your questioning, let me simply
lodge an objection here that I believe this line
of inquiry is irrelevant to the issues raised in
the complain. I have allowed it to go on, I Will
continue to allow it to go on, but I want to note
my objection here so it’s preserved.
MR. SHIPLEY: The issue of the entire
constitutional crisis is laid out in great detail
in your verified complaint. If it were not
relevant, I question why it would be in there.
MR. LIPPS: Counsel, you are free to
MR. SHIPLEY: Thank you.
MR. LIPPS: My obligation is to preserve
issues and I’ve done so.
MR. SHIPLEY: Thank you. Let’s read the
question back to the gentleman that asked about
whether he recalled anything being said the
evening of April 15 during the debate about
threats of violence.
(Whereupon, the preceding questions beginning
on page 26 line 20 was read by the reporter.)
MR. LIPPS: At that meeting?
MR. SHIPLEY: At that meeting.

Page 29

Q (By Mr. Shipley) and I ask you to answer that
question, sir.
A And I did answer that, I think. This started
before April 16, the tensions and the
disagreements and the controversy so you reviewed
one tape. There’s much more that took place
before your involvement and your reviewing of the
tape. And my stance again, as the leader of the
Cherokee Nation, principal chief, I have a
responsibility to assure that any decision I may
make for the safety of the people and the
civilians and I took those steps. And I would do
it again if I had to.
MR. LIPPS: If I can move it along, I
think his question, and it’s a fair one, and I
think your answer is clear on the record, his
question is to ask whether, specifically referring
to the council meeting, do you recall any threats
of violence at the council meeting.
A Council meetings tensions were real high. People
were — maybe not that council meeting but before
that — were on the floor pointing, raising their
voices. The president of the council at one time
had papers taken from him and thrown on the floor.
There were marshals outside during press

Page 30

It was — it was getting pretty heated. And
again, I don’t know how long you’ve been involved
with the Cherokee people, but I’ve been involved
with them all my life and you have to know their
mind-set. And my responsibility again was to take
every step possible to assure the safety of the
One more thing that I recollect was one of
the judges seemed to call the — our general
counsel to let him know that there was a
possibility of storming the building that they
were — where they had the documents or so forth.
So he felt like they were going to move those guys
to the courthouse. So there were a number of
things that took place before the April 16 meeting
that you are referring to.
MR.SHIPLEY: I’m asking that we read
the question back to the witness again.
(Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
(Whereupon, the preceding question was read by
the reporter.)
MR. LIPPS: Okay, I think there’s a
pending question as to what threats of violence,
if any, you recall at the April 15 Tribal Council

Page 31

A Okay. Being on the council for eight years and
being the only council member to have perfect
attendance over those eight years, I felt like
there were some things happening inside that
council meeting, letters being passed around by
various folks, looking at the looks of people’s
faces, I felt like there was some potential there
and that was my read. I did not review the tape
so that was one of the reasons I made that call.
Q (by Mr. Shipley) Then is it — is there anything
else other than letters being passed and your
looking at the faces of the councilors which
suggested to you that there was an emergency
threat of violence at the time of the meeting on
the 15th of April, 1997?
MR. LIPPS: Well, now, Counsel, you’re
asking a different question. At the meeting
itself or by April 15?
MR. SHIPLEY: No, I’m asking during the
MR. LIPPS: Fine, than you, that
clarifies it.
A That helps me. For that one meeting maybe not,
maybe not.

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Q (By Mr. Shipley) Well, I mean, maybe not — I
guess I’m asking you if you recall any statement
by anybody during the debate on the resolution
17-97 which supported the view that you’ve
expressed of an emergency or a threat of violence
other than letters being passed and your looking
at faces; I would like you to tell me about it.
A Yes, I know by being in those council meetings all
those years, I pretty well can tell the mood of
the people, the agenda items and I felt like even
then that there was a need for this resolution.
Q I understand that you felt that. What I’m asking
you is did anybody say that, say anything that
supported that during the meeting?
MR. LIPPS: Counsel, at this point I do
object. I think it’s gone beyond legitimate
questions to badgering the witness in light of the
fact you have a videotape which will speak for
what was said. You’ve asked his views and
opinions, and he’s given them. I’ll let him
answer this question as well but I think it’s
getting into the badgering phase.
MR. SHIPLEY: I’m perfectly happy to
have this be the final question.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) And that is if there is anything

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else, other than what you have told me, which
transpired during the debate and the council
meeting the evening of April 15, 1997 which
supports your feeling that there was an emergency
or that there was an impending jeopardy of
personal violence, please tell me.
A Yes, I felt that way all along from the previous
meetings and then this one meeting, yes, I did.
My feelings did not change.
MR. LIPPS: I think you’ve got it. I
think you’ve explored this as much as you can.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) Then there is nothing other than
your feelings, nothing happened to support those
feelings at this meeting, right?
A There was a lot of debate, there was a lot of
controversy, there was a lot of people, unusually
out there between the meeting, after the meetings,
People were on the floor talking to council
members, talking, discussing. There might have
been even pushing that took place.
Q All right. There was —
A In one of those council meetings, I’m not sure if
it was this council meeting, there was a lady that
was pushed. There were marshals at this meeting
that were outside that were armed that word was

Page 34

they were going to come into the council chambers.
Q If there were concerns about violence, why
wouldn’t there be anything in this council
resolution which alludes to that —
MR. LIPPS: Objection as to the form.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) — 17-97?
A Repeat your question.
(Whereupon, the preceding question was read by
the reporter.)
A I declared emergency for prevention from violence and
that resolution I think is what it says.
Q The word “violence” does not appear. I’ll hand
you the document to see if you find anything.
A I declared emergency for prevention and I’ll still
hold to that.
Q The word “violence” does not appear in there?
A No, sir, it doesn’t appear. We accomplished that
because there was no — after we engaged with the
agreement and there was no violence.
Q Had there been violence before this time?
A There was potential. That’s what I was trying to
prevent. That’s my responsibility.
Q Who prepared this document we’ve been discussing
and reviewing, resolution number 17-97? Was that
prepared by the Cherokee administrative office,

Page 35

A I would say so. I would say Charles Head, myself.
I don’t know who else did that.
Q All right. Now, directing your attention to the
first 32 pages of this Exhibit 17 and the letter
that you drafted sending this resolution, this
council resolution to Bruce Babbitt, again I don’t
see any suggestion that there is an impending
threat of violence and I wonder if I’m missing
MR. LIPPS: Objection. Is that a

Q (By Mr. Shipley) Tell me if I am, —
MR. LIPPS: Objection to the form of the
Q (By Mr. Shipley) — please.
MR. LIPPS: YOU don’t have to answer
that particular question. But you can ask any
others. Because the question is missing’
something. It’s so imprecise that I’m confident
that that’s not an appropriate question but feel
free to inquire.
MR. SHIPLEY: I don’t want to mislead
Q (By Mr. SHipley) In reviewing the letter which you

Page 36

wrote on April 16 sending the resolution that we
discussed to Secretary Babbitt, you don’t mention
any imminent jeopardy of violence, do you?
MR LIPPS: Objection, the document
speaks for itself.
A We have the resolution before us; that’s what we
MR. SHIPLEY: Counsel, can you help me
get an answer to the question or shall we have it
read back?
MR. LIPPS: I think it’s an
objectionable question because the document speaks
for itself. You’re asking —
MR. SHIPLEY: Are you directing him not
to answer the question?
question. He will answer as I think he’s doing
appropriately and as best he can.
MR. SHIPLEY: Read it back.
(Whereupon, the preceding question was read by
the reporter.)
A No, sir.
(Whereupon, Defendant’s Deposition Exhibit
Number 19 was marked for identification purposes.)
Q (by Mr. Shipley) Now that you have reviewed the

Page 37

document that’s been marked as number 19, it is a
letter dated April 18, 1997, signed by Ada Deer
then head of the BIA, correct?
A Assistant secretary, yes.
Q Yes. Thank you. In that letter Ms. Deer states
that she determines that there is an imminent
jeopardy presently existing in the Cherokee
Nation. Do you see that?
A Yes.
MR. LIPPS: It says imminent jeopardy to
the public safety within the Cherokee Nation
Indian county jurisdiction. That’s your
MR. SHIPLEY: Yes. Thank you.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) What knowledge do you have of any
basis that Ms. Deer had to make that statement?
MR. LIPPS: You’re asking him as to what
Deer had in mind? I object.
MR. SHIPLEY: No, that’s not what I
said. Read the question back.
MR. LIPPS: Then I don’t understand the
Mr. Shipley: Listen to it carefully.
(Whereupon, the preceding question was read by
the reporter.)

Page 38

MR. LIPPS: I think that’s what you
asked, Counsel, and it is objectionable.
MR. SHIPLEY: Are you directing him not
to answer it?
MR. LIPPS: No, but I do think you’re
asking — the question said what basis did she
have. And I think that’s the question you need to
put to her, in all fairness. But to avoid
unnecessary objections, if this witness knows what
Ms. Deer had in mind, you may certainly answer
MR. SHIPLEY: I’m not asking what she
had in her mind, I’m asking what evidence, what
facts this gentleman is aware of that BIA had made
available to it upon which a conclusion of
imminent jeopardy could be made.
MR. LIPPS: If you know, you can answer.
A The resolution is all I can speak to that was
passed by the council.
MR LIPPS: And — go ahead.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) You gave —
MR. LIPPS: The document speaks for
itself in that regard. It states the reasons for
the action but you may inquire.
Q (By Mr. SHipley) You gave no further information

Page 39

other than in your letter of the 16th which we’ve
looked at and the accompanying resolution to
support Ms.Deer’s letter on April 18?
A Just the fact that we — what I told you earlier
about the reason that I felt it was necessary to
declare emergency, that it was my responsibility
again for the safety of the people to take those
actions. And I was concerned with two armed
marshals there. That was my reason.
MR. LIPPS: Let me help, if I may,
MR. SHIPLEY: I don’t want you to help.
MR. LIPPS: That’s fine.
MR. SHIPLEY: I want the witness to
answer the question, thank you.
MR. LIPPS: I do think the question is
objectionable, but I’m happy to allow you to
MR. SHIPLEY: Thank you.
Q (By Mr. Shipley) The situation of two marshal
services wasn’t mentioned in your letter of the
16th nor in the statement that you have made so
far about you transmitting that information to the
BIA. Did you?
A Not in the resolution, sir.

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More to come…